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A very tricky question to which no one will know the answer until well after the agreement, five, ten years may be more. And even then, it will be a very subjective answer; we will have a booming economy because of or despite Brexit and vice versa.

It just goes the pointlessness of a second referendum or parliamentary vote.
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By Sheff_Blade
Judges wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 9:05 am
Sheff_Blade wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 8:30 am
A very tricky question to which no one will know the answer until well after the agreement, five, ten years may be more. And even then, it will be a very subjective answer; we will have a booming economy because of or despite Brexit and vice versa.

It just goes the pointlessness of a second referendum or parliamentary vote.

So what is the PM talking about when she says "the best deal for Britain."

What are her targets. Without them how do we know she has got what she wanted.
It's all that is talked about on her campaign, something she can do but Corbyn can't.
What is it then. That's what I would like to know.
I think I know the best deal, but I believe that has no chance - control over EU immigration, full free access to the single market and membership of the customs union.
So that's the best deal, that's what Boris said we could have pre referendum.
Is anything less a failure in negotiations​.

We also hear no deal is better than a bad deal.
Hence my question as no politician has defined good or bad. Yet we are being asked to vote on that basis.

Not that Corbyn would know anyway, but as a voter I would like to know.
She is talking about what she considers to be the best deal possible in her opinion; it's up to the voters to decide whether they think that 'her best deal' would be better or worse than anybody else's. In contrast, Corbyn is saying maintaining EU nationals' rights in the UK and keeping the same EU rights for British workers are his main objectives. Both sides have already accepted the first, and the second is not even an issue in the negotiations. The EU couldn't care less what rights are given to British workers by future UK governments after Brexit so that's one negotiating point he would be bound to win!.

Complete access to the single market was accepted by both sides (including Boris) during the referendum as not possible without freedom of movement. The myth that the voters were not told was shot-down by Andrew Neil in his interview with Nick Clegg a few weeks ago. Clegg was shown a whole array of video clips of him, Boris and all the other combatants saying that Brexit would mean loss of access to the single market.

As to broadcasting her objectives, if you were buying a watch from a 'looky-looky' man would you start by telling him you will pay no-more, no-less than 10 euros but your first offer is 5? I guess Jeremy might!
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By Sheff_Blade
I guess like everything else in life it comes down to definition, and everyone has their own subjective definition. There are plenty of Spanish walking around with iphones, and Chinese shops selling cheap Chinese goods to prove lots of non-EU countries have access to the single market.
Mrs Nelson wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 11:09 am
What does

" it's up to the voters to decide "

Actually mean
I agree that's not very clear. I meant that the voters at the general election will choose who they think will get the best (in their view) Brexit outcome. If you're pro-EU you would vote for Lib-Dems, pro-Brexit then Tory.
By Kinchy
Before we look at trade deals ( or lack of them) lets look at the two main contentious points before trade negotiations can commence ( as per Barnier Tusk and Juncker)
1) 100 billion euro divorce bill.
Barnier says that this is to "settle the account"- so Monsieur Barnier please produce the SIGNED OFF accounts for the past 20 years.
The figure they have given is no more than an attempt to fill the black hole that the UK exit will produce, now and into the future.
The nett contributors have already said they will not pay any more than they already do.
The EU are a bit like the looky looky men with their "designer" sun specs.
They ask 12 euros you offer 4 euros they reduce their bid to 8 euros you say no and start to walk away - all of a sudden they realise that you aint going to offer any more, and lo and behold you have a pair of Ray Bans for 4 euros. The Uk MAY have to pay to be in the single market but not the ludicrous " keep us afloat" 100 billion.
If they try to call the UK bluff then just walk away - who will suffer most?

2) Rights of EU/UK citizens.
May has stated quite clearly that she wants to have this resolves asap, but for a reason that I fail to comprehend, Merkel has put the block on this so far - why who knows.

Now trade
The UK exports 44% of its exports to the EU,( not 60% as is totally misquoted by Mr Corbyn), so it is a very important market for UK companies and that goes without saying. BUT the EU exports more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU.
Personally, I would prefer that the EU/UK trade agreement will rest on WTO rules.
Why? There are more than plenty alternative markets for the UK to sell its products to when the inevitable downturn in UK export volumes and revenues decrease.
On the plus side the UK can and should explore the massive world wide numbers of (A ) suppliers and (B) buyers.
The UK's hands have been tied by the restrictive protectionist EU, and the UK should now embrace the massive opportunities that beckon.
Remainers continue to carp on about a market of 500 million in the EU - fair enough.
In the Commonwealth ALONE the potential market place is 2.5 BILLION people.
Possibly the most simplistic reason for the Leave vote, and I would have a bet with anyone that might dispute that.
Immigration HAS to be controlled, both the non EU and EU. The UK is a small set of Islands with a limited amount of space and facilities. It cannot be cohesive sense to allow such enormous numbers of people to continue to enter.
Integration will never happen if the numbers are without control and monitoring.

So to summarise ( sorry for a long posting) If the EU wants to play hard ball then walk away - this great nation has faced enemies far more formidable and has come out victorious.
Last edited by Kinchy on Mon May 08, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By old boy
Kinchy, only got as far as your first few sentences, and a correction is needed.

The EU accounts have been signed off starting with the accounts of 2006; prior to that, from 1994, they were not. However, it is true to say that the accounts have been "qualified" from 1994, mean that there are errors in the accounting .

Those errors do not signify that there is evidence of fraud, although there is that possibility, but that the auditors found that some of the payments may have been made incorrectly by mistake.

The major problem is that every time a whistle-blower comes forward to expose the accounting errors, the top brass close ranks and hound the whistle-blower into submission and/or prison. At least one such person is currently in prison having been found guilty passing confidential material to an investigative journalist because the EU officials responsible for stopping incorrect payments refused to take action on evidence provided to them by their EU colleagues, and instead forced the local prosecutors to prosecute the whistle-blowers.
By Kinchy
Ok so fair enough, I fully accept your comments re the accounts.

So, in the most simplistic terms I can to review ,digest and absorb,, the accounts.
What revenue was paid in, what payments were paid out, what is the nett balance of the account?

It is rather the same as the accounts of a Community of Owners here in Spain before the AGM?
If you sell a property here in Spain you are obliged to settle your account as far as fees are concerned or the new owner inherits them, BUT when you have left you do not keep paying for the communal pool upkeep etc.
By Kinchy
Knowing what I know of the tories

Well that should fill an egg cup with room to spare!

"The best deal for the country " should be interpreted as the best deal for the global businesss who pay the tax that funds the nhs etc and of course funds the Tory party, you must be a bit thick if you think she is going to negotiate a deal with huge consideration to people at grass roots level.

Global business that funds the NHS - yes they contribute so that the health care YOU receive in Spain is reimbursed by the UK Government.
Grass roots level everyone will be the driving process for her negotiations.

Come into the light so you can embrace the future with a Tory Government
By Kinchy
Now now, no need to call Corbyn a skunk. A lemming would be a more fitting description.
The grass roots as you call the public will have a say - via the Tory MP they elect, quite simple really, and there is going to be a lot more of them on June 9th :D
Judges wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 3:29 pm
1. if Brexit means Brexit, what do you consider May will need to get to say it's a good deal,
As you say, whatever the outcome is, she will claim it to be the best deal available. My money's on hard Brexit (WTO terms) because both sides say freedom of movement is a red line, and the EU are determined that the UK will not be better off by leaving (and who can blame them).
Judges wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 3:29 pm
2. as the original question asks what's to negotiate apart from expat rights anyway.
Despite my answer to 1). there's plenty to negotiate including the Irish border, Gibraltar, the 'divorce' settlement, the transfer of regulatory responsibilities, links with various european agencies (eg Medicine, Environment), cross-border security and policing arrangements, access to intelligence databases, fishing rights, scientific co-operation, etc etc.
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